Transitioning from Opera 12: (Not) handling lots of tabs: Stashing, not hoarding

I regularly have more than 100 tabs on my tab bar in Opera 12. This seems to happen because I've been using the tab bar both as a way to keep open tabs related to what I'm currently working on, what I will be working on soon, and also pages that I want to read or check up on later. I can often find my way back to what I want simply by its approximate position on the tab bar, of I use the Windows panel to filter my tabs.

This has been possible because Presto is an efficient little engine that handles these kinds of situations better than anything else.

In Opera 15, though, I have found that opening a lot of tabs makes for a rather poor browsing experience. As a result, I have started adding pages to my Stash whenever there's something I'm not going to do right away or in the immediate future. This seems to work fairly well, and a major advantage of getting tabs out of the way is that my tab bar stays readable and (more) usable. Stash also lets me filter items, just like the Windows panel did.

This feature will only get better as it improves over time as well.

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77 thoughts on “Transitioning from Opera 12: (Not) handling lots of tabs: Stashing, not hoarding

  1. Is there a way to have the multiple tab preview in the taskbar? In O12 you could either see just the active one or have every tab appear as a preview when you hover over the Opera icon in the task bar. If there is some kind of switch, let us know! 😀

  2. Originally posted by hallvors:

    Well, not too surprised – I haven't had enough time to use it myself, but I should probably put it on GitHub or something, an let you report bugs properly there.. Here you go:https://github.com/hallvors/opera-notes-extensionWonder what issues you've hit

    Could you place an extension ready file on git? I downloaded the zip but Opera is not seeing it as an extension. I'd like to try this out.*Update* I got it working by enabling developer mode. Seems to work well

  3. Could have sworn I posted a followup already.Originally posted by haavard:

    If you had bothered to read my posts and comments, you would have noticed how I've been pointing out how it's fairly obvious that we need to start with a solid foundation instead of trying to cram as many features as possible in there from the start.

    True and you've returned my hope that Blink Opera will eventually be better than 12, and thus that moving to Blink was a good and very gutsy decision.

    It was a big mistake to release Opera 15 in such a function-poor state.

    I don't think so. It means that we can get new users over to an Opera browser that works with more sites, which is a good thing.

    My point is that this could be gained with a well-publicised series of alpha builds. You'd have got plaudits for the solidness of Opera 15 as well as understanding that it was lacking in features.More to the point, I'm talking largely from a marketing perspective. Major releases are the best chance for Opera to get publicity. Far too often Opera have blown it by rushing out a shoddy product, only for it to become amazing a beta release or two later.After 19 years of being the best, Opera Software should know that it's marketing which sells, not the quality of the product.Lastly, by keeping Opera 12.x working properly eg on FB you'd be losing none of your userbase. Heck you might even gain users from publicity for the 15.x alphas.

  4. Originally posted by davegould:

    After 19 years of being the best, Opera Software should know that it's marketing which sells, not the quality of the product.

    They learned, that's why Opera 15 is here.Less features = less resource wasted = more money to advertise

  5. Originally posted by An-dz:

    Originally posted by davegould:

    After 19 years of being the best, Opera Software should know that it's marketing which sells, not the quality of the product.

    They learned, that's why Opera 15 is here.Less features = less resource wasted = more money to advertise

    Agree, along with the resources spent duplicating effort on a rendering engine that was never going to work consistently with Google's websites, even if with FB.

  6. Originally posted by davegould:

    My point is that this could be gained with a well-publicised series of alpha builds.

    New/novice users won't download alpha builds. That's why we needed a solid basic browser as a start, and that's what was released.Originally posted by davegould:

    After 19 years of being the best, Opera Software should know that it's marketing which sells, not the quality of the product.

    No, the quality is important. In this case, the fact that the browser will work with more sites is a quality indicator for a lot of people.Originally posted by An-dz:

    They learned, that's why Opera 15 is here.Less features = less resource wasted = more money to advertise

    What the move to WebKit/Blink means is that we can spend more time on interesting things, and less time on trying to catch up with the web all the time.Please don't troll, OK?

  7. Originally posted by haavard:

    What the move to WebKit/Blink means is that we can spend more time on interesting things, and less time on trying to catch up with the web all the time.

    Then why do some developers such statements that "I can say for sure that that is not going to happen. Have you seen some of the new stuff? The downloads experience should be much better now, for instance. We’ve focused on the core experience of web browsing."?The Google focused the "core experience" through the Chromium API. The Opera should focused on the feature richness.The Opera was the only and irreplaceable browser with rich features and ultimate configurability.I can't believe that you and the management can't see the obvious fact that those users who are only wanted a fast and website-compatible browser already switched to Chrome or never used Opera or even never heard about Opera.Most of the users don't care about features, it's true. But most users don't discourage the use of Windows the fact, that Windows has Registry, DLL files, CMD/PowerShell and Group Policy and don't discourage the use of OSX, that OSX has Unix core (Darwin) and has Terminal and don't discourage the use of Android, that the Android has Linux core.But the average users don't use Linux. Why? Because it would be more complicated to click the K menu instead of Start menu or open a package manager GUI and choose the wanted softwares instad of googling and downloading .exe files?Or maybe, because lack of support drivers, ordinary softwares, etc and because basically different? I mean, no need more clicks or interactions to do anything you want to do compared to other systems, sometimes even less. Or the Windows power users. Who regularly use commands such "ipconfig /release", "ipconfig /renew" or "netstat -a" or "netsh int tcp set global dca=enabled" would be unable to learn some different bash commands?They two key is that the advanced features are well hidden from the average users and that your software become well supported and offer ordinary interface for the newcomers.In some respects the old Opera was the Linux of browsers (apart from the closed source).- Strictly followed the standards, but nevertheless it was unsupported by real world websites. (like Linux by real world driver and software developers)- It was more logical, than the other browsers in an objective point of view (like Linux), but the other browsers was more popular and they copied each other so in a subjective point of view the illogical (like Windows) seemed more logical to many users, only because it was/is more popular and more usual.- Offered almost unlimited configurability, but doesn't hid it properly and doesn't covered well enough with a shiny, user-friendly (G)UI/next-next-finish interface.After Opera switched to the fast and well supported Chromium API they get a huge advantage. Since the new Opera is Chrome-compliant the newcomers would switch to Opera. Not everyone would take advantage of all the features, but some people would swich due to sidebar, some people would switch due to advanced bookmarks, some people would switch due to Notes panel, some people would switch due to M2 and RSS reader, some people would switch due to customizable toolbars and so on.I'm one of the admins of Magyar Opera blog (official hungarian Opera fansite) so I spread the word about Opera to many people online and offline and I read many forumcomments and comments on news portals which releated to news from Opera. So I pretty much know the browser usage habits.The Opera biggest drawback was the site compatibility issues. But this drawback is gone with the Chromium API.Many people would use a feature-rich and site-compatible Opera.The site compatibility is the 1st priority for many people. But this doesn't mean that they don't appreciate the functionality more or less. Only they don't depend on it.But since the Opera 15 became a Chrome clone (current state) a place became empty in the browser war.- There are a minimalist browser which is built-in in the most popular OS.- There are a second, more minimalist browser which follows the standards (more or less) and super fast. And has the biggest marketing ever.- There are a dying, minimalist, but highly extensible, but a little slow, open source browser.- And there are some small, slowly developed player, mostly Chromium and Firefox forks which was developed in the developers own way. For example: The CoolNovo has IETab. Who wants IETab in 2013? :yuck: The Torch Browser has built-in BitTorrent client. Who wants built-in BitTorrent client? It was the most controversial feature in the old Opera, although sometimes maybe useful for the average users 😀 (who are not hardcore torrenters and don't want download and install separate client for this rare purpose).Do you want to figure out what place is empty?(The place of a fast, standard compliant, powerful, feature-rich, highly customizable internet suite.)

  8. Originally posted by haavard:

    That's why we needed a solid basic browser as a start, and that's what was released.

    That raises the question why you broke some of the standard support chromium/blink has built in like e.g.input type="color"and others that were solidly implemented?Originally posted by haavard:

    In this case, the fact that the browser will work with more sites is a quality indicator for a lot of people.

    "… work better with a really tiny fraction of all of the hundreds of million sites out there …" would have been the better expression – mostly the FAG sites. Most of the normal pages already worked just fine with Opera 12 and I saw that more and more pages were removed from the browser.js, often with the remark "CORE fix" or "site changed", which was a sure indicator that the browser became better and the sites more standards conform.Now, in the advent of HTML5 and such more standardized code, wouldn't it have been possible to analyze at which part of the tons of code, that those FAG sites throw IMHO needlessly at the user, the old engines choked – and primarily concentrate on fixing the bottlenecks and partially trade off standards support for performance for some time (as chromium does)?e.g. refactoring and speeding up the code responsible for position: fixed or box-shadow? Simply disabling box-shadow by a userCSS solved the scrolling "problem" on facebook and some other pages completely for me, so concentrating on those issued could have avoided many complaints. Then some fixes to the JS engine and you were there. You switched the JS engine before and I can remember that one of the old JS engines, which kicked ass at that time, was programmed on the old JS engine by just a handful of developers in more or less their spare time and the binary output was put into the browser (no need to look up who violated the NDA by telling that anecdote, that is an open secret for old power-users ;)).That way we could have kept the incredibly efficient little engines we had and keep on hording live tabs instead of stashing.FAG sites = Facebook, Amazon, Google

  9. Not actually talking about the same thing, but I still thought this was kind of amusing.Originally posted by haavard:

    In Opera 15, though, I have found that opening a lot of tabs makes for a rather poor browsing experience.

    Originally posted by Haavard:

    In this case, the fact that the browser will work with more sites is a quality indicator for a lot of people.

    Originally posted by QuHno:

    "… work better with a really tiny fraction of all of the hundreds of million sites out there …" would have been the better expression – mostly the FAG sites.

    Facebook, Amazon, and Google? Except for some browser-sniffing Google sites that typically work just fine if you identify as Firefox, I don't buy even this argument. Facebook is slow? Well, yeah, but guess what: it's freaking slow in Webkit/Blink too! So it is in Firefox/Gecko! Far worse than in Opera, I'd say. Scrolling speed? Who gives a @#$ when clicking links doesn't even register? Or worse, shows you a pixelated sad smiley face[1] or a sad kitten[2] on a regular basis? (And besides, it doesn't even scroll slowly for me… or it kind of does, but that's because of how they pull in extra content with AJAX. Once more, that's the same in other browser engines.) With Amazon I haven't even got a clue what you're even referring to. That site is very speedy and its features work very well. It's pretty much the polar opposite of Facebook in my experience.[1] Chromium/Chrome.[2] Chropera.

  10. Originally posted by Frenzie:

    facebook-fails.css

    :jester: :jester: :jester: tnx, I'll try and let you know how it behaves

  11. Originally posted by vux777:

    can you share some tips for non-programmers? I would really like to fix that scrolling on FB.

    I haven't heard of this box-shadow thing, but presumably something like this would workCreate a file named e.g. facebook-fails.css.Put this in it:

    * {box-shadow:none!important}

    Now browse to the intended target site, right click, add site preferences, display, and choose your file.

  12. Originally posted by QuHno:

    …Simply disabling box-shadow by a userCSS solved the scrolling "problem" on facebook and some other pages completely for me, so concentrating on those issued could have avoided many complaints. Then some fixes to the JS engine and you were there. .

    can you share some tips for non-programmers? 🙂 I would really like to fix that scrolling on FB.I think that's the term for actual shadows from pop-up boxes (graphical, not some geeky term for …whatever) 😀 and what's FAG stands for? :smurf:

  13. well, the code definitely works, as seen hereBut, it didn't help much with FB scrollI've been complaining/suggesting those kinda things before.And about your comment, no… it's not the same surfing on FB with O12 and O15.O15 doesn't freeze when opening FB page in a background, or when loading pop-up profile preview.But that's the only O12 "sin"…everything else is :heart:

  14. Opera 12 doesn't freeze for me when I open Facebook with about 40-50 pages open; Chromium… yeah, it kinda does, even with just a few pages. Opera 15 I haven't really tested much due to its current Windows-only nature, but like I said, sad kittens. Although memory usage and sad kitten frequency have improved loads.But I also know that computers differ wildly. On my computer Opera is clearly the superior browser, yet on my wife's computer Opera is a bit wonky and Firefox works great. On my netbook it's kind of the same story, which I find surprising. However, I have never seen Chrome/ium work particularly well on any computer, ever. I can only conclude it cares more about what kind of results it'll get in benchmarks than about actual user interaction. Kind of the opposite of how on the iPhone GUI drawing stops when you touch it so it always feels fluent. And that's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about when I differentiate between Opera fast and Chrome fast. And I'd add that Gecko has been improving leaps and bounds on both accounts.

  15. Originally posted by haavard:

    Originally posted by davegould:

    Simply to the massive loss in basic functionality eg:

    If you had bothered to read my posts and comments, you would have noticed how I've been pointing out how it's fairly obvious that we need to start with a solid foundation instead of trying to cram as many features as possible in there from the start.

    That might be true for a new product, but not true for an upgrade of an existing product that's been around for over 10 years.

    Originally posted by haavard:

    Originally posted by davegould:

    It was a big mistake to release Opera 15 in such a function-poor state.

    I don't think so. It means that we can get new users over to an Opera browser that works with more sites, which is a good thing.I'm still repeating myself over and over again…

    It's a shame that this approach has totally alienated so many of your existing, long standing (10+ years in my case) customers.

    If Opera was going to release something so radically different it should have called it something else, and not just implied, by it's name, that it was the next release of a long established product.

  16. don;t have time to read all this, but suffice to say if the notes bookmarks… panel is not soon restored to its riteful glory, i will switching to torch or another browser if i find a better one. they seam better in other respects, despite being just a redesign of google chrome. they did pretty well with torch, i must say so far i like it

  17. [off-topic]Originally posted by aysegulguncesi:

    WHERE WILL COMPLAIN ????

    Click on "about", or if the spammers removed that, replace /blog/ with /about/ in the address and click on the "report abuse" button. The rest is self-explanatory.Alternative way, if it is really urgent:Log in to Opera's IRC server irc.opera.com:6667 and join #myopera Post the /about/ address of the spammer and a short explanation, why they should be removed.During the day there often is a community moderator online – but you should still additionally report them with the report button on the /about/ page, just to make sure.Removal might take some time, moderators are only humans too ;)[/off-topic]

  18. Originally posted by Penge4:

    Then why do some developers such statements that "I can say for sure that that is not going to happen. Have you seen some of the new stuff? The downloads experience should be much better now, for instance. We’ve focused on the core experience of web browsing."?

    I don't really see how that is relevant to my comment. Moving to WebKit/Blink still means we can spend more time on more interesting things. What we did for Opera 15 was to focus on a solid foundation for the future, which is the context of the comment you quoted.Originally posted by Penge4:

    But since the Opera 15 became a Chrome clone

    Please stop trolling. The only thing you will achieve by doing that is to be ignored.Originally posted by QuHno:

    That raises the question why you broke some of the standard support chromium/blink has built in like e.g.

    Not really. Software will always have bugs, or there can be things that aren't implemented yet. Solid doesn't mean "perfect" because that is impossible in the world of software, and browsers in particular.Of course, you know this already so I'm not really sure why you are making comments like that.Originally posted by Penge4:

    "… work better with a really tiny fraction of all of the hundreds of million sites out there …" would have been the better expression

    It works better on countless sites, including major sites that are causing users to leave Opera.Originally posted by Frenzie:

    Not actually talking about the same thing, but I still thought this was kind of amusing.

    Care to explain what you find amusing? Is it that you do not understand the difference between an extreme use case by a power user, and regular people with more regular browsing habits?Originally posted by Frenzie:

    Facebook, Amazon, and Google? Except for some browser-sniffing Google sites that typically work just fine if you identify as Firefox, I don't buy even this argument.

    You don't buy the argument that it works better with more sites? Well, you can buy it or not, but it is a fact. We're working on this kind of thing every single day, remember?Originally posted by virbius:

    That might be true for a new product, but not true for an upgrade of an existing product that's been around for over 10 years.

    It is true for this upgrade to an existing product because we started from scratch, and that, again, means that we need to start with a solid foundation instead of trying to cram as many features as possible in there from the start.

  19. Look, some of you are out of line. I'm not going to accept more snide remarks and insults. If you can't be polite and respectful, there's no reason for you to comment on my blog.

  20. Originally posted by Haavard:

    Care to explain what you find amusing? Is it that you do not understand the difference between an extreme use case by a power user, and regular people with more regular browsing habits?

    To some extent "pages" and "sites" are synonymous.* So Opera/Blink might work with more sites, but it won't work with more sites at once. ;)That being said, on a netbook with 1GB RAM, let alone on my cellphone, suddenly an "extreme" use case isn't so extreme.** It's only on proper computers that you need an "extreme" use case.Originally posted by Haavard:

    You don't buy the argument that it works better with more sites? Well, you can buy it or not, but it is a fact. We're working on this kind of thing every single day, remember?

    I don't buy that it works better with the specific examples listed by QuHno—I certainly buy that it works better with more sites, even including mask as Firefox. But like I said, Facebook and Google work pretty awful in Chromium and Firefox, while Amazon works quite well in any browser I've tried, including Opera 12.* You could say there's e.g. an average ratio of 2 pages to 1 site. You get the idea. Perhaps someone's made an extension that can show this ratio at any given time? If not, release Opera for Linux and maybe I'll write it. :P** And this is anecdotal, but I know so-called average users who use many dozens of social networking and shopping sites at once. Actually they are far more demanding than my "power" use because I often block many scripts and styles, plus I typically don't like to visit sites with heavy scripting to begin with. Oh yeah, and I use "enable plugins on demand".

  21. Originally posted by Frenzie:

    But like I said, Facebook and Google work pretty awful in Chromium and Firefox

    No they don't work awful, not as awful as in Opera 12 definitely.Originally posted by Frenzie:

    while Amazon works quite well in any browser I've tried, including Opera 12.

    You mean after the countless patches the Opera team delivered after wasting time debugging, coding and reviewing patches when the sites change? Oh.

  22. Originally posted by rafaelluik:

    No they don't work awful, not as awful as in Opera 12 definitely.

    The site occasionally freezes for a few milliseconds because of Facebook's annoying infinitely scrolling junk in all browsers, but Opera/Presto arguably does better by occasionally merely slowing down a little instead of freezing. /no-snark! I'll grant you that recent Chromium—not Chromium a few months ago—seems to be doing slightly better than both Opera/Presto and Firefox, but the site is still just awful period.Originally posted by rafaelluik:

    You mean after the countless patches the Opera team delivered after wasting time debugging, coding and reviewing patches when the sites change? Oh.

    Made me look. As far as I can tell, there's exactly one Amazon-related patch in browser.js:

    else if(hostname.indexOf('amazon.')>-1){
    		addCssToDocument('.ONETHIRTYFIVE-HERO ul{margin-bottom:0!important}');
    	
    		if (navigator.appName!=='Opera'){
    			document.documentElement.style.MozAppearance = 'Opera';
    		}
    	
    		opera.defineMagicVariable('MediaServicesZoomMotion', null, function(obj){ Event.prototype.__defineGetter__('layerX', function(){return this.x;});  Event.prototype.__defineGetter__('layerY', function(){return this.y;}); return obj;});
    		log('PATCH-1025, Amazon - Black Friday deals float upwards due to margin styling on UL and innerHTML updatesnPATCH-527, Add more spoofing when masking as another browser on AmazonnPATCH-1129, Old DynAPI expects Netscape 4 event properties, breaks zooming/panning product images');

    Anyway, I get what you're saying. Spending less time fixing engine bugs or site compatibility issues instead of making the browser better is a good thing.

  23. Not in my experience… Opera 12 UI freezes a lot and it's laggy at pages such as Tumblr modern themes, Twitter, Facebook, and the list keeps going. If I leave Flash enabled it's unusable…You found the actual Amazon patch in BrowserJS but not all the modifications they had to make over time as the site changed, the testing, etc. Well, I'm glad you understood this 1 example after all.We can now take for granted speed, compatibility and web standards support, while getting unique UI features and as we can check in Opera 15+ the stability, because they aren't forced to spend resources in the former anymore.

  24. Originally posted by rafaelluik:

    We can now take for granted (…) web standards support,

    Only if the Opera engineers repair the borked things in chromium/blink – and there are a lot that the chromium developers didn't fix. The worst example is SVG, but chromium even fails on some basic HTML4, some of the basic JS event handling etc. Of course Web developers do intensive testing to ensure that everything works in chromium and work around the stuff that chromium doesn't support – which is a shame in itself.

  25. Originally posted by rafaelluik:

    Not in my experience…

    Exactly. ;)Originally posted by rafaelluik:

    You found the actual Amazon patch in BrowserJS but not all the modifications they had to make over time as the site changed, the testing, etc. Well, I'm glad you understood this 1 example after all.

    I disagree with many of your examples and to a certain extent the principle. That's separate from understanding the principle.

    stability

    The browser gives me many a sad kitten instead of crashing completely. 🙂

  26. Originally posted by QuHno:

    Only if the Opera engineers repair the borked things in chromium/blink

    Getting rid of the snark in my reply took some effort. 😛

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